Author Topic: Setup tips for dirt  (Read 20483 times)

Offline Jason Treschl Racing

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Setup tips for dirt
« on: July 14, 2014, 02:37:32 pm »
Getting ready to start racing my legends car on dirt here in GA. The tracks are approximately 3/8 mile and are semi to high banked. My car was raced on asphalt mostly at Lanier before it closed and it currently has:

LF 225    RF 275
LR 185    RR 200

 Is this information mostly valid?
http://nebula.wsimg.com/2ab8e0b941d83dd28928b58e36646c2e?AccessKeyId=1F46035E9CF2EC4FA848&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Was really curious about this statement:
 "Lead Weight- 20 lbs. of lead weight should be added to the right rear of the car to help it pitch into the turns."


Jason Treschl
#31 Semi Pro
2015 New Senoia Raceway Track Champion-Dirt Legends of GA


Offline VMS Motorsports

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 06:16:42 pm »
There's a lot of information there. Go ahead and give it a shot.
It's nowhere near what I would recommend, but maybe the clay is different down there
JIM BUCHER
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Online justfreaky

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 12:59:06 am »
What track(s) are you racing at. The lead statement is not likely accurate. I have to read over the post and put things together. Been a bit busy so may take me a bit to reply.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline Jason Treschl Racing

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 08:17:44 pm »
The tracks are Senoia Raceway (3/8 mile 11 degree banking), and Cochran motor speedway (1/2 mile flat). I don't think I'm going to listen to the lead statement, it seems odd to place weight on that corner.

As a side question, how much faster are the American racer tires vs federals on dirt?
Jason Treschl
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2015 New Senoia Raceway Track Champion-Dirt Legends of GA

Offline Gimpster

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 05:01:32 am »
What you are looking for on dirt is rear steer. I began messin with the theory in 2003 on Legends adapting sprint car chassis technology and big soft rear tires, simulated to a Legend chassis.  You hear a lot about soft right side springs... lol sprint cars have a huge soft right rear tire number one. Number 2 you cant take a setup similar to a modified or a late model and apply it to a Legend because of the huge weight difference and adjustability of their chassis, you will have a rough riding handful of what the heck is upsetting this chassis.  Here is the skinny as compared to a light weight chassis. How soft you can go on the right rear depends on driver weight and added lead weight (plus where it is mounted) to the chassis on the rear which effects the roll center. Yes you want the chassis to roll over on the right (many think it is for side bite but that is not the goal). The goal is to maintain the right rear control arm level and have it stay level while cornering. This retains max wheel base on the right side. Your heavier rear spring should be on the left rear. That forces the left rear control arm downwards and shortens the wheel base on the left side yielding rear steer during cornering plus maintains weight on the left rear tire tread for grip. 2 or 3 years after I found this works awesome on dirt, I seen dirt modifieds and late models going to light right side springs. Those babies really lean right these days compared to the same chassis racing in the '90's. Beauty of those chassis is their rear control arm adjustability at the forward mounting point (able to move them up or down to control chassis set-up on heavy or dry slick tracks without changing springs). In this aspect what they call 'getting up on the bars' while cornering is limited in Legends as they have a fixed forward rear control arm mount (non-adjustable) in which even my sprint car chassis have as a luxury. Legends only have 2 link rear suspention where thiers have 4 link rears which allows them even more adjustability and rear response yet, over a Legend's limited travel and 2 rear control arms. A lot can be gained by rear tire stagger and tire pressures as well as long wheelbase base setting on the right side and minimum whellbase base setting on the left. Starting point for the right rear spring poundage would be the drivers weight. Depending on the track corner tightness and banking, a 20 to 30 pound lighter spring than the drivers weight may be used to obtain the right rear control arm pivot (keeping it level). Left rear spring poundage will control how quick the left rear rolls the chassis, yes but on the right front corner that spring will control how fast the chassis settles back on the rear for drive off the corner. Too heavy of a right front will make the chassis drive toward the wall coming off the corner, so a real heavy spring there is not the answer. Left front spring is a no brainer cuz you only need the left front to drive through the pits unless you are letting off the throttle drastically on corner entry. On dirt, who lets off right ? (wink)... If you are lost on your front spring starting point.. throw a couple of 200's at each side up front to start neutral and see how the chassis reacts with the racers weight and driving style. Adjust spring poundage for corner entry if you run out of adjuster threads, basically, while nailing the perfect set-up down. Once again, if you take some one else's setup and put it in the car It prolly wont work. Driver weight difference, amount of lead and where it is mounted will come into play for chassis reaction on different segments of the track... Soft springs are a plus also because dirt tracks are rough and hitting those rough spots will upset the chassis severely with heavy springs. I hear tails of cars running 100 pound springs but know that my chassis never have over a 200 on any corner. Set-up info provided looks like you would be trying to take a dump truck around a dirt road corner at 60 mph.. you be out in the rhubarb going into the corner and need a tow rope to pull ya off the corners.... might work on a smooth glassy dryslick track but I would put it in file 13 for runnin on dirt..... Sorry if I kicked over the bean can here

~Gimpster~


Offline Jason Treschl Racing

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 01:54:04 pm »
That was a heck of a detailed post Gimpster. Along those lines, I am going to be starting with the below springs.
LF 185     RF 200
LR 175    RR 150

Depending on the feel of the car, there will be a possibility to swap rear springs to loosen it up a bit. I only weigh 145lbs so I will have a bit of lead to place on the car. What is the goal for RR weight %?
Jason Treschl
#31 Semi Pro
2015 New Senoia Raceway Track Champion-Dirt Legends of GA


Offline VMS Motorsports

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 03:58:51 pm »
Personally, when I start people out, I have them with even weight across the front (not even springs, even weight when scaled), and as left rear heavy as possible. This will give you a tighter car, but you will be able to drive it and adjust from there. RR weight isn't really a point to shoot for in my opinion.
JIM BUCHER
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http://www.vmsmotorsports.com/

Offline Gimpster

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 05:34:27 pm »
Sounds good... drop about a half inch or more of chassis rake in the rear with those springs.....

~Gimp~

That was a heck of a detailed post Gimpster. Along those lines, I am going to be starting with the below springs.
LF 185     RF 200
LR 175    RR 150

Depending on the feel of the car, there will be a possibility to swap rear springs to loosen it up a bit. I only weigh 145lbs so I will have a bit of lead to place on the car. What is the goal for RR weight %?


Offline Gimpster

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 05:38:07 pm »
Yeah Jim.. see how the chassis goes in and comes off from that point
~G~

Personally, when I start people out, I have them with even weight across the front (not even springs, even weight when scaled), and as left rear heavy as possible. This will give you a tighter car, but you will be able to drive it and adjust from there. RR weight isn't really a point to shoot for in my opinion.

Offline IraceLegends77

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 06:07:08 pm »
In my opinion these cars are all about cross. Get some guys to get you in the ballpark with springs and then start working on your cross numbers. I went to soft on springs one time and these cars don't like coil bind. At least mine didn't.
Scott Wilkerson #77   Vision Graphix Racing


Offline Jason Treschl Racing

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 10:30:49 am »
The thought behind my spring choice is to provide a slightly tighter car on exit. This should be the easiest condition to drive and gain experience on a dirt track. Since this dirt series has only started this year in GA, most of the guys here don't have a ton of experience, and most are fighting with a very snappy loose condition mid turn and have started experimenting with a higher rear weight % to keep the car rotated from entry to exit.
Jason Treschl
#31 Semi Pro
2015 New Senoia Raceway Track Champion-Dirt Legends of GA

Offline VMS Motorsports

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 10:40:19 am »
Left rear heavy will give you drive off the corner/ tighter car
JIM BUCHER
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Offline Gimpster

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 05:25:41 pm »
 I have been approached by the "sloppy loose" issue many times over the years. Driving style (driving it in as you do on asphalt) has a lot to do with it. With a tight chassis, I mean 48 or higher cross weight, the rear end will break loose mid corner and tend to come around. Basically the chassis unloads at that point. Instinct is to tighten the car's cross. Problem gets worse. A chassis will unload at different times depending on the momentum inertia going around the corner. If you dont let off and pitch the car into the corner, it will unload differently than if you drive it in letting off until it bites then get back on the gas once again. My driving style is of the pitch variety barely lifting at all but to set the chassis at my desired line that I want coming off the corner. Little tip is the more rake (less ride height in the rear) the less cross you can run under acceleration. Personally I run 42 percent cross on a sedan and 44 percent on a coupe. There are days I prefer 46 percent on a sedan...depends on the track. My point is heavy cross at mid corner on dirt will act as though the car is loose because the chassis roll center wont transfer smooth, it suddenly unloads and tuff to recover from.

~Gimpster~

Offline Jason Treschl Racing

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 02:22:29 pm »
Does there seem to be any gains made from running a lower rear ride height and lower cross vs a higher rear ride height and higher cross?
Jason Treschl
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2015 New Senoia Raceway Track Champion-Dirt Legends of GA

Offline Gimpster

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Re: Setup tips for dirt
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 03:41:22 pm »
 For some drivers it has no gain. I have helped some fellers on set-ups and have given them like 4 set-ups and none would work for their style of driving. Basically they couldnt drive their fingger up their a**. One gain of it is left rear weight transfer for bite coming off the corner. If the car will hook up off the corner sooner you have a longer run at the straight (with bite)= more top end at the end of the straight. Rear rake ads bite (logically) How loose you run your chassis is defo your preference. I prefer super loose so that when I lift, the rear steer and stagger will turn the chassis without steering wheel effort or allowing me to lift off the throttle less and scrub off less speed. Snug the chassis up from that point  depending on what the track does as the night progresses. Low rear ride height I use to transfer the weight back to bite (traction) when getting back in the throttle. Actually nobody needs to run my preference because the chassis balance scares some drivers to bump the steering to the right while coming off the corners. Dry or glassed over rubbered up feature surface is another deal. Too much rear rake and less cross, you will heat up the tires easier than with a more balanced set-up. the ability to tell which tire has heated up and where you need to go to cool it or keep it cool comes from experience but that is an entirely nother topic. Most tracks reward heat race top winners with a more forward starting point in the feature, so the heat races are normally wet, sloppy, rough or tacky. You need the rear transfer to go through the corners on these surfaces. That is where I base my chassis is for the beginning of the night.
 These cars are built with a push from USLC and I have never had anyone solidly answer me what they did while designing them to make the chassis push. Once you figure that out, you can throw nearly anything at them for a set-up and it will be driveable on asphalt or dirt once you can identify the chassis balance while running it around a track. ... I babbled enough..I'm out.. later

~G~

 

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