Author Topic: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs  (Read 2008 times)

Offline AllenSpeed

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Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« on: February 21, 2018, 01:54:20 am »
We participated in a Christmas parade in early December.  During the parade the car began to run rough and smoke was coming out of the exhaust when the gas was pressed down. Finally it died. When I unloaded the car I found the clutch had siezed up also. I removed the clutch and started it up. It barely idles and when you press the gas it smokes and has a fiery pop out of the exhaust pipe. Where should I start?



Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2018, 02:32:05 am »
Welcome to the forum!

As I am sure you already know; A seized clutch is never a good thing. Are you using the old style clutch or the disc clutch?

I would start with a good carburetor cleaning. If the car had been sitting for any time at all; Drain and change out the fuel. Check the spark plugs. Clean and re-gap, or change them out. When is the last time the valve springs and/or valve lash has been checked? I would also change the oil as I am not sure if it was overheated.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 02:30:55 am »
I took the clutch apart and the needle bearing just fell out.  Bearings are ruined.  I just ordered some new bearings.  I will clean the inside of the drum and the clutch pads.  I have looked at the Bandeloro Stuff PDF on clutch maintenance.  It appears they are using a die grinder on the pads and some type of sander wheel that goes on the end of a drill.  Do you have more information on what to use to cleanup the pads and the drum?

We bought these cars last year and we ran a few races at TMS in Ft.Worth.  Now that I have found this website I have gained more knowledge.  The clutch bearings seized up because the chain was WAY TOO tight.  Now that I have the information I need to order parts for these clutches, that hurdle has been cleared.  I ordered new bearings, new snap ring and a new fiber washer.  Next issue is the springs....  The clutches that came with the cars have white springs.  Somebody at the track said that brown springs are better, but use red if that is all you have.  When I go to look up brown and red springs there are 2 different ones available.  Here is what is available:
Noram Mini Cup Clutch Engagement RPMs

•Red = 1700
•White = 1850
•Blue = 2100
•Purple = 2400
•Green = 2550
•Plain = 2700

Noram Ultimate GE Racing Clutch Spring Engagement RPMs

Noram Number Color Heavy Shoe RPM Light Shoe RPM
NA013 Brown 1620 1800
NA017 Black 1820 2100
NA020 Red 1950 2450
NA030 White 2420 2740
NA040 Blue 2530 2960
NA050 Purple 2575 3010
NA060  Green 2975 3440
NA079 Orange 3100 3660
NAO86 Big Brown 3380 4020
NAO88 Big Red 3530 4320

If I were to buy Norman Mini Cup springs, there are no brown springs available and the red are on the lower RPM side.  If Norman Ultimate GE springs even fit in the Norman Mini Cup clutch... it lists 2 reds and 2 browns either really low rpms or really high rpms.  I have no idea which springs to get (I have no idea what rpm engagement I need).  The bando with all of these issues is my 9 year old daughter's car and she is still getting comfortable racing it.  My other bando is for my 16 year old daughter and she can run at the front of the pack.  So do I need different springs for the two different types of drivers that I have?

Honestly the car that is smoking and shooting fire out of the exhaust has been smoking a little bit since we bought it, but now it doesn't idle at all.  I have changed the oil in both cars.  I did go through the carbs to change the jets to a smaller size, but the jets that were in them were actually as small as the ones I was going to replace them with.  I did not clean the carbs with a mega sonic jewelry washer and I have NOT changed the spark plugs nor the valve springs.

I want to run the smaller jets in the carb that has the idle problem... I think 98 and 94?  The jets that I have are all 100.
Where can I buy jets, valve springs, carb gaskets, and spark plugs?  Which spark plugs are the best to use?  Are we only allowed to buy carbs from 600 or are there companies that sell carbs blue printed and bench flowed?  If we can use  companies that blue print them... who are these companies?

We have raced QMs for 3 years and if you thought QM handlers were tight lipped think again!  I can get on my phone or computer and order whatever part I need in 30 seconds for my quarter midgets.  This 600 racing is crazy.  Clutch burns up... What clutch is it? Where can I buy another one?  Can I buy replacement parts for the clutch, if so where at?    It took me 2 days to get the info on just that and I still have no real info on the clutch springs. 

I have read every blog in here about clutches and it has been very helpful.
FYI I ordered my parts to rebuild my clutch from here:
http://www.bmikarts.com/Noram-Replacement-Parts-for-Mini-Cup-Clutch_p_4157.html






Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2018, 09:10:33 am »
Well, there is a mouthful of questions... LOL! And, also a wealth of information.

Our friend Ed at www.bandostuff.com is a great guy to talk to and has a wealth of information on his website. Unfortunately, he hasn't been on our site for a while.
His clutch maintenance PDF (while not overly detailed on instruction) is good advice. http://www.bandostuff.com/files/PDF_-_Clutch_Maintenance_04-13-09.pdf  The sanding wheel is called a "Flapper Wheel". A Dremel Tool works well for the clean up of the clutch drum and shoes. You can also use emery cloth and do it by hand. Just takes a bit longer. Either way, removing the glaze from the drum and shoes is a good idea! BMI Karts has this little tidbit on "10 Things to know about a centrifugal clutch" http://www.bmikarts.com/10-Things-to-Know-about-a-Centrifugal-Clutch_ep_63-1.html I have had some dealings with BMI while playing with a pavement Kart project. Again, very helpful folks! The thought is to just remove the glaze on the clutch drum and shoes every few races. You are not trying to machine the surfaces.

Clutch Springs: So the rule book dictates a minimum of 750# for car and driver (as raced). This is almost double what the centrifugal clutch was designed for. According to the info on the BMI site (and others I have read), the idea is to get the clutch to lock up quickly to avoid slippage of the shoes on the clutch drum. So I would say use the Red (mini cup springs) or Brown springs on the clutch shoes. Remember that you also have to have the rev-limiter hooked up (as per rule book). I do forget what the rev-limit is set at.

As far as USLC is concerned; They want your money! They are not going to tell you that you can order parts from other sources. True that some of the parts are only available through USLC. They have contracts with certain companies for exclusive rights to sell their part(s). Case in point; Rear End gears for Legends cars. If you want a new rear end gear, the only place you can buy them (other than used) is through USLC.

A good carb cleaning (I think) is a MUST! mch46 (member here on the site) is the go to guy on carbs. I am sure that Ed (bandostuff) can help you as well. If you have trouble getting a hold of either of these guys let me know. I will try to get you in contact with them.

I hope I answered some of your questions. I'm not a Bando guy... Just working from info here on the site and some of my old files that I have saved over the years.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2018, 09:22:18 am »
I forgot to bring up the valve springs. From all I have heard from folks over the years, they need to be replaced on a regular basis. They are notoriously weak. I believe they should be replaced every 5-6 races. I don't have my old computer moved to my new place yet, so don't have immediate access to that info.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2018, 08:55:57 pm »
The chain was too tight because..... I raised the car for the parade, so it would clear bumps and railroad crossings! I didn't think to check the chain tension after I raised the car.

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2018, 09:14:45 pm »
Do these springs fit on the Noram Mini Cup clutch:
Noram Ultimate GE Racing Clutch Springs?
Also where do I buy  valve springs and spark plugs?


Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 12:16:24 am »
I do not know if the Ultimate clutch springs fit the Mini Cup clutch. You could call BMI and ask them. Clutch springs are also available from any USLC Dealer.

You can buy the Valve Springs from any USLC Dealer or Briggs and Stratton (https://www.briggsandstratton.com/na/en_us/home.html). You want the Heavy Duty Valve Springs- part#809374
http://www.bandostuff.com/files/Valve_Spring_Maintenance_09-28-09.pdf

Randy carries jets for the Bando carbs: http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carb%3ABandoleroMainJet

Hope that helps you.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 12:54:01 pm »
Forgot your spark plug question. Spark plugs are NGK7 if I recall correctly.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2018, 12:04:18 pm »
Thanks for the info. My girls chose to race QMs for the regular season and Bandos for the summer series. I will post updates when we start the summer series.

Offline justfreaky

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2018, 12:37:17 pm »
Good luck to all of you! Please keep us updated on how the season is going.

Steve
Better to be hated for who you are, Than to be loved for who you are not.

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2018, 11:33:53 pm »
Reason for smoke and poor idle:  spark plugs!
I had not changed or check the spark plugs since we bought it. It would throw out smoke from the exhaust even when it ran good. I thought it was the jets being too large. Nope, it had the wrong heat range spark plugs. The plugs were so covered in carbon they finally started to not fire. Dry fouled plugs! I put the correct plugs in and BAMMM, NO MORE SMOKE! I decided to do some testing, so I put brand new plugs like the ones that were in it when I bought it and it ran good again but had the smoke out the exhaust... unburnt fuel. Put the correct plugs back in and she is good to go! First Summer Series Race is this Thursday. It will be our 1st bando race this season!

FYI the plugs that were in it when I bought it were made for QM Honda 120 racing. Great plugs for quarter midgets, not good for bandos!

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2018, 08:21:59 pm »
Scratch the splugs causing smoke. The cars still smoke the jets are too big. I need to buy some 94 size jets. Randy appears to only have 110 and up. I have 98s but I need 94s. Does anybody know where to buy .094 jets for these nikki carbs? Does the smaller jet go on the left or right?

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2018, 08:50:37 pm »
The part number to order the .094 high altitude jet would be AWESOME (94 jet).  Here is the briggs and statton .098 jet (98 jet) part number: 690880 .

Offline AllenSpeed

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Re: Won't Idle and Fire Pops Out of the Exhaust @ 3K RPMs
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2018, 07:43:38 pm »
I ordered the  94 jet from 600 racing. I will supply part number when the part comes in. I also ordered some 90 and 95s from Randy. http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Carbjets. When I get the air fuel ratio correct then I will have better info on the plugs.