LegendsRacer - Legends & Bandolero Racing Forum

LEGENDS => Brakes => Topic started by: chadvarner85 on January 04, 2013, 07:38:24 am

Title: Brake Update
Post by: chadvarner85 on January 04, 2013, 07:38:24 am
Anybody heard anything else about when these things are going up for sale. I feel like kid at christmas.lol. I got my car tore apart and trying to decide to wait or go ahead and try to rebuild my old stuff and put it back on. I didnt get any reponse from USLC through email.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on January 04, 2013, 08:47:23 am
I would put your car together and replace when they do come out. I have called and emailed and got no response.

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legend79 on January 04, 2013, 09:35:11 am
There good at that, I had no response either. It would nice to know if they are available before the start of the new season
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on January 04, 2013, 09:48:02 am
As per phone call to USLC this morning, the new front brakes are still being tested.
Most likely will be Wilwood,  but not 100% sure.
Was told they are hoping to have them ready to sell sometime in March.

Put your cars together, and if you feel the need to buy them when they do become available, do it then.
Don't wait and be scrambling the night before
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: csm14701 on January 24, 2013, 11:52:51 am
Does anyone know it this new system will still use drum rears, or if disk rears will ever be an option like in the thunder roadsters???
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on January 24, 2013, 12:14:14 pm
Update:
The new front brakes have been ordered by USLC, after talking with them today I would expect them in the next 60 days. Retail sounds to be $350.00 to $400.00 for the complete set up. You will be able to purchase pads from many vendors as they will be available to fit this system.  The kit will include brackets, pads and calipers, everything necessary to mount and use the fronts.

The rears will remain drum for now, they tested rears BEFORE they went to the fronts, they felt the front was a bigger issue and moved to revamp the front system first. The rears will not be this year, i would expect at some point there will be a rear disc system available.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on January 24, 2013, 01:26:31 pm
Thank you Dennis for the update on the new brakes.

In my opinion only, regarding rear disc brakes, would it make sense to come up with a clamp on style disc brake assembly that we all could assemble onto our current housings to keep the cost of this change to a minimum?  Or do you see USLC going the route of installing an entire new rear end assembly, probably a  quick change with disc brake similer to the modified legend car?   Whatever they do with this in the future, I hope they consider the cost impact to all of us Legends racers.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on January 24, 2013, 01:38:20 pm
This will for sure not change the housing. They tested a system that I did not see, I do know it will not change the housing and I do believe the pricing will be similar to the front. Again, do not expect this to happen this year and it may never happen but it was tested.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chadvarner85 on January 24, 2013, 01:52:56 pm
Do you have a model or manufacture of the front brakes.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on January 24, 2013, 08:52:59 pm
I am pretty confident that when, and if, they go to rear discs they will use the Thunder Roadster set up. It is a bolt on Wilwood system and they are already having to cast their own rotors for the application.

We have been using that system on the TR for 10+ years now without any issue(s).

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on January 24, 2013, 08:53:33 pm
Bolt on rear disc brake options for the Toyota 8 and 10 bolt rear end have been available for years.
As I am SCCA and not INEX, I have both front and rear Toyota and Wilwood calipers.
Hawk Machine makes bolt on brackets for both the Toyota and Wilwood calipers.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legend79 on January 29, 2013, 07:05:11 am
Does anyone know which calliper it is yet?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on February 04, 2013, 05:01:09 pm
As per talking with USLC today:
It is a Wilwood caliper. It is not an existing model, it is being produced for USLC, thus the delay in getting it.
They are in production, and should be ready in 4-6 weeks
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legend79 on February 04, 2013, 05:34:14 pm
Are they going to leave a car with stock callipers (Toyota) way behind? Or does no one really know yet?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on February 04, 2013, 05:45:21 pm
Are they going to leave a car with stock callipers (Toyota) way behind? Or does no one really know yet?

I guess that depends on whether you believe the test results from USLC. Although, I have seen more discussion here on the site than anywhere else. I think they will be a bigger issue for pavement than for dirt. Pad compounds will also play a part in the stopping power. Since no one seems to know too much about these new calipers, it will be interesting to see the real world results.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on February 04, 2013, 09:07:13 pm
How about a final price tag?  Is there any info on that yet?  I'm very curious to see what the total package will cost.

Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on February 04, 2013, 10:00:57 pm
They did not have a price available
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 03, 2013, 09:51:34 pm
OK...It's the first week of April.   Just curious, has any one seen or purchased the new Wilwood front brake package?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 04, 2013, 10:37:49 am
USLC still does not have them in stock yet as of 9:36 this morning (Thursday), was told they should be in on Monday or Tuesday
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerdad on April 04, 2013, 08:28:23 pm
I was told two weeks ago first week of April. On Monday I was told it turns out it will be  two to three  weeks more. So last night the old brakes went back on.
Now you say next week I do not know what to be leave. I gess we will see
Thanks cody
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 09, 2013, 09:34:53 am
The new Wilwood brakes will be ready to ship on Friday 4/012/13. These are really nice and besides the advantages from a real race brake set up you will cut approx. 15lbs from your car!!!!
We have placed an ad on the dealer page for ordering!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: dirkhenry3 on April 09, 2013, 10:05:35 am
Hey Dennis
Do you have any pics of what they look like?
do you know what style pad they take?
What does the kit include?
Thanks
Dirk
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on April 09, 2013, 10:08:59 am
15 lbs...... must be this kit includes the rotors as well as the calipers.... 15 lbs. seems like a lot for just the brakes.....

Are the rotors included, or are these just for the calipers, brackets and pads.....
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 09, 2013, 03:08:03 pm
I have NOT weighed these!!! I should have clarified this and I am sorry.  This info was passed on to me by USLC. I  will have pictures as soon as I have installed a set. The rotors are not included. You will be removing both brackets on each side-  the wishbone backing plate, the caliper bracket, the slides, caliper and pads.  It very well could be a good amount of weight difference.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 09, 2013, 03:13:45 pm
Boy oh boy! I received a call from USLC in regards to the $20.00  discount i am offering racers. I guess an unhappy dealer or racer feels I am stepping on someones toes by offering the $20.00 off, guys I am trying to help racers anyway I can. The $20.00 discount WILL remain in effect until I am told to remove the ad! This is a new product and I am trying to help guys who want it and have waited with a little help. Sorry if I stepped on your toes!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 09, 2013, 04:31:51 pm
I'm skeptical of 15 pounds, but even 5 pounds is alot on these cars. Will be interesting to start getting feedback from guys running them
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on April 09, 2013, 07:55:59 pm
When I spoke with USLC back in January, I was told that the kit included everything, including rotors for right at $400.

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 09, 2013, 08:30:34 pm
THERE ARE NO ROTORS INCLUDED.  Since the first day I was involved in the brake update rotors were not discussed as being necessary and or included. The plan was to install a kit to our existing spindle and keep the existing rotor. The retail price is $399.00. I have offered a $20.00 introductory offer to anyone interested.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 09, 2013, 08:43:02 pm
I imagine the caliper bracket is similar to the one Hawk Machine makes. It's a simple bolt on piece. A lot less weight than the stock hunk of iron!
The aluminum calipers weigh less than the stock steel pieces. Toss the backing plate.... I can see a significant weight savings!

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 09, 2013, 09:37:18 pm
I agree the pieces do add up in weight. I will weigh all the stuff as soon as I can and get it out there since I brought it up, I agree 15lbs is alot. We will see.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chadvarner85 on April 10, 2013, 07:25:40 am
USLC also told me over the phone rotors were included. Ive needed new ones but have been waiting... I guess I will just have to get some.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 10, 2013, 08:24:17 am
Hey when one racer says he thought rotors were included that could easilly be a mistake. When others say the same, something is wrong and I will try to get some answers!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on April 10, 2013, 09:57:14 pm
Thank you......
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on April 12, 2013, 11:42:33 pm
Rotors are NOT included. The rotor will remain the same.  I have a few sets on order as well, and should have them next week. Can't wait to see them. I think this is a great move to a great new piece.

We also have them available to purchase on the website. Www.northeastlegends.com
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Chunk on April 15, 2013, 10:06:37 am
I got to see these in person. They look like a very nice piece. The only thing I'm concerned about is the pads. The pads are only about 1 1/2" by 1 1/2"  and maybe a 1/4" thick or so. I'd imagine they're not going to last near as long as current stuff, but more importantly I'm curious to see how much stopping power they'll have with such a small pad?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 15, 2013, 11:00:43 am
Chance,

You can bet people are already looking to upgrade the pads. Whether USLC offers them or not.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 15, 2013, 01:07:39 pm
I agree Steve....However, until some sort of picture is posted and/or actual brake pad sizes are known, it is very possible that you will NOT be able to put a brakeman pad or other into these calipers.  I would more than likely think the Wilwood calipers were manufacted to only allow their product to be used with them.   If so, then it will be up to Wilwood to provide good, long lasting brake pads.  As I said before, only time will tell... ;)
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Chunk on April 15, 2013, 02:58:37 pm
I can tell you without a doubt that we won't be able to use the current oem style of pad.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 15, 2013, 05:59:09 pm
Doubtful that the current Brake Man pads will fit; But Wilwood sells lots of different compounds.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Hyerflyer2 on April 15, 2013, 06:11:20 pm
I have pic of the caliper but can't seem to post it if you want e mail me at hyerflyer2@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 15, 2013, 06:34:41 pm
Pic did post. Thanks!
Looks just like the old ones the Dwarf guys run (minus the INEX decal).

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 15, 2013, 08:01:26 pm
Ok guys, heres what the kit includes, we are ready to ship them.
looks pretty simple to install.
Two calipers
pads
aluminum mounting brackets
two braided lines
.005 and .010 shims
bolts and washers
instructions

The instructions do state that there is up to an 8lb per side weight difference.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 15, 2013, 08:40:12 pm
That is based on the Wilwood Dyanlite caliper. It looks like the mounting tabs look a little different.

We already use theDynalite caliper the rear of the roadster.

The pads are little squares and the life of them will be very short. I already have that brake pad in different compounds for that caliper.

You will need to carry spare pads...

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 15, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
Randy, do you think the pad will last longer on the Legend because of the weight difference? Although I guess being on the front they will take most of the abuse.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Winterracing on April 15, 2013, 10:43:04 pm
That is based on the Wilwood Dyanlite caliper. It looks like the mounting tabs look a little different.

We already use theDynalite caliper the rear of the roadster.

The pads are little squares and the life of them will be very short. I already have that brake pad in different compounds for that caliper.

You will need to carry spare pads...

Randy - RPM
When you say you'll need to carry spare pads does that mean pads more then once a weekend???

Dan
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 15, 2013, 11:05:16 pm
Its a medium duty pad compound designed for dirt racing with  vented rotors...check Wilwoods site for the #10 compound. They aren't going to last long on asphalt applications
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 08:16:39 am
LOL, this is another statement that has just been thrown out there with no merit or research. These brakes and pads were tested, the #10 pad went 500 laps and is on the test car without issue. There are many compounds available for your driving style.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Winterracing on April 16, 2013, 08:55:48 am
Looks to be a nice caliper, from the picture posted it looks to be a fixed caliper versus a floating one like we have now?  Does it have a piston on both sides or is it still only the one side?  Also, no one has really said what the main goal of these are (less drag? better stopping power?)

Dan
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerdad on April 16, 2013, 09:06:49 am
There's a picture ? Where would I find this
Thanks Cody
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 16, 2013, 09:14:54 am
Cody,

Pic posted on page 3 of this thread.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 09:45:47 am
Dan,
The brakes on the front of the car became an issue as USLC has used the Celica caliper since the beginning. The caliper has become harder and harder to come by IN QUANITY and they new the future of that caliper was a problem, that was the supply aspect.
USLC had racer after racer complaining about spending $800 to $1500 on a brake system to compete with the guy that had spent this amount of money. USLC weighed all of the options and looked to supplying cars down the road. They tested multiple caliper with multiple size pistons and went with the Wilwood. Now we have a race proven front brake system that should hold up. If you have lets say Brakeman stuff or you are happy with what you have you will be fine. This is a $400.00 brake system that will provide USLC a product it can use for years. I will say from what I have seen I am looking forward to putting them on cars and not having to screw with the crap we have had. Its one bracket that bolts directly to the spindle base with two bolts, the caliper bolts to that plate. No more slides, clips or brackets from 1979. The downfall for a dealer is trying to caryy the right stuff for both systems as they take different parts including the braided line. Time will tell!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 09:58:12 am
LOL, this is another statement that has just been thrown out there with no merit or research. These brakes and pads were tested, the #10 pad went 500 laps and is on the test car without issue. There are many compounds available for your driving style.
The Hell it is Dennis, read it for yourself!

Directly from Wilwood's website:

BP-10
 
Compound Data Sheet 
    Use & Caution:


Medium friction, smooth engagement, low abrasion on iron rotors.
Flat torque curve.
Low to medium wear rate, increases as temperature increases.
Street Use OK
 
    Application:


High performance street / strip, drag race, and track day categories using vented iron rotors.
Light to medium braking on dirt tracks including late models, modifieds, sportsman, and street stocks.
Disc brake conversions on street rods and muscle cars.
     Characteristics:


Medium friction compound with the low noise and low dust of a street performance compound and the increased friction characteristics of a semi-metallic race compound.
Smooth engagement with consistent response from a flat torque curve throughout its entire effective temperature range.
Good low to middle temperature wear rates.
Beds quickly and provides fast response without excessive abrasion on vented iron rotors.
 
 
Compound Temperature Range & Torque Values 


BP-10 Compound Temperature Range & Torque Values
 
Temperature range and overall friction value are the primary considerations for pad selection. The pads must be capable of maintaining the proper amount of friction for stopping power within the temperatures that will be realized on the track during the event. Then, overall wear rate must be considered. For most asphalt and road race applications, compounds in the high temperature ranges over 1000°F range are usually necessary. Dirt track, drag race, and street performance applications usually operate at temperatures between 500° and 1000°F. Keep in mind that these are general ranges, and not absolute values. Many factors and unforeseen influences can affect brake temperatures. The best indicator for pad selection will always be on track performance. If pad fade (friction loss) due to overheating occurs, then improved cooling, a heavier rotor, or a higher temperature range pad may all become necessary. 
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Chunk on April 16, 2013, 10:00:51 am
Yeah it is a fixed caliper and is a dual piston. I'm guessing the second piston gets its fluid through ports in the housing? I didn't see any crossover tubes in the kit.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 10:02:13 am
LOL, this is another statement that has just been thrown out there with no merit or research. These brakes and pads were tested, the #10 pad went 500 laps and is on the test car without issue. There are many compounds available for your driving style.

And here is the direct link. Guess Wilwood doesnt know their product as well as you do
http://www.wilwood.com/brakepads/BrakePadsApp.aspx?compound=BP-10 (http://www.wilwood.com/brakepads/BrakePadsApp.aspx?compound=BP-10)
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: svtmatt on April 16, 2013, 10:10:21 am
Dennis, I'm not trying to start an arguement, but 500 laps isn't really that long for a set of pads.  In any given race weekend, with practice, a 10 lap heat race, and a 30 lap feature race, I may run anywhere from 60-100 laps on a race day.  So these pads might last me as few as 5 or as many as 9 races?  I get a season or more (15-20 races) out of the different type of racing pads I've used over the years.  

Is 500 laps simply what's been accumulated, or was 500 laps the target for useful life of the pads?

MT
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 16, 2013, 10:15:39 am
Do note that Dennis said "There are many compounds available for your driving style".
This statement leads me back to my earlier post that there are other brake pad compounds available.
I am guessing that the #10 pad is what comes with the system at initial purchase.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 10:27:04 am
From what I have been told, the 10 comes with it.
I dont know, but Im sure Dennis is correct that other compounds will be available. Just wonder why they chose to go with the weakest pad, unless you will only be able to buy pads through USLC, then it makes sense from a business standpoint.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on April 16, 2013, 11:19:49 am
Yes, there will be a few different compounds available (however the #10 is the only one available right now. Give it a bit for them to produce these and the others will be available), just as there are with the current system. For example, you can buy cheap Wagner pads, or step up to Mintex, Axxis, Hawk, or carbotechs, depending on what you like. The new system will be no different, except that all of the pads will come from wilwood.

I cant for the life of me figure out why guys are complaining about this system. it is $389 for the entire kit, saves 15lbs, and performs as well as the $800-$1000 brakeman stuff. The new system eliminates the crappy shims and springs that we currently have (that require weekly maintenance to perform correctly.

I have these on order, and can't wait to use them. I will jump on board with Dennis and offer $20 off the set to anyone that buys before 6/1/2013, as long as you mention this forum. I believe these will be a great set, and if $20 off helps you all to want to try them i am happy to do so.

You must call me to get this deal though, this won't be available on the website. 585-721-1795
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 16, 2013, 11:35:16 am
Randy, do you think the pad will last longer on the Legend because of the weight difference? Although I guess being on the front they will take most of the abuse.

Nope, since 80% of the braking happens at the front wheel, they will probably wear much faster.

That will all depend on the compound used as well.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on April 16, 2013, 11:48:43 am
I get that they are probably a decent system, I think some of us get upset that every time you turn around it costs more and more money to stay competitive….. Last year light rims, now new brakes… It will never end, as long as INEX wants to make more money this will be the trend….  

  I had no problems with the old brakes, maintenance is not an issue…. Cleaning and weekly maintenance is free… only effort involved….. Are the old calipers that hard to find?  I have heard yes and no.   Like I have stated before, instead of catering to the few who have spent 800 to 1000 on brakes, why not write a rule that prohibits that group from spending that much, and write a rule that would help the MAJORITY of us who don't have an endless supply of money.

frustrating...... Every year there is an additional 300 - 500 dollars added on to the total budget because INEX has written a new rule allowing something "new and improved"

 I understand why dealers love this, it keeps people ordering stuff all the time, it's just difficult for the weekend racer who does this for fun.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 12:08:09 pm
They turned atleast 500 laps and the pads are still good to go, thats a fact and that is proven!!!!! If you have your own proof bring it and we will discuss it!!!!

BRAD, lol- I got my ass chewed because a certain person raised hell for offering a discount here, I am standing behind my offer and it will as yours stay. I am shipping several sets to several states TODAY! Brad, Keep selling to anyone that orders parts and do not worry about it. By the way, the e-mailer to USLC did not have the nads to sign his name- imagine that!
 
So whoever has an axe to grind with me and Buckeye legends Call USLC and let them know that we are shipping today, nevermind, they already know!

USLC HAS ORDERED PADS FOR THE NEW CALIPER THROUGH BRAKEMAN< THEY WILL BE AVAILABLE SOON! THE ORDER WAS SIGNED YESTERDAY!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 16, 2013, 12:11:18 pm
... Give it a bit for them to produce these and the others will be available), just as there are with the current system.

Why do you have to wait. The caliper is being sent from INEX with the cheapest pad that is offer for the caliper...

Here are all of the pads offered by Wilwood for that caliper;

  http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsList.aspx?padtype=6812


I know that I already have several compounds available for this pad from Porterfield. I have not checked but I am sure most other pad manufactures have pads for this caliper also.

I cant for the life of me figure out why guys are complaining about this system. it is $389 for the entire kit, saves 15lbs, and performs as well as the $800-$1000 brakeman stuff. The new system eliminates the crappy shims and springs that we currently have (that require weekly maintenance to perform correctly.

I am not complaining, I am just passing along my experience with this product. I am a racer who has been using this caliper on an USLCI manufactured car for over 8 years, it is not the best application for this car. The caliper list prices on the Wilwood website for $106.79. So, two of those equals $213.58 plus the $42.45 equals $256.03. So, you have $132.97 for two mounting brackets and hose.

http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperList.aspx?subname=Dynapro%20Single

Don't, worry you will be working on these caliper more often than you did with the stock calipers. I only get two years out of the calipers on the rear of my roadsters. The issue that I find the most is the wear of the steel piston inside the aluminum caliper bore and the galling that occurs as the pad get thinner & thinner.

There are also shims that need to be replaced every 2-3 sets of pads as they lose there tension and also get grooves which cause the pads to hang up;

http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Brakes%3ATRBPS

I wonder how long it will take BM to come up with a round seal for these calipers as well and reduce the drag. Will that then be illegal like it is on the original caliper? The Toyota caliper was never offer with a round o-ring, only a square cut thus making that change illegal per the "as delivered" section of the rulebook.

Oh well, between this new addition and the mandatory engine resealing program I really hope my Speedway Motorsport (TRK) stock goes way up and I can finally see a profit on my investment of 19 years.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 12:15:25 pm
Brad,
I dont have a problem with the new brake caliper, just don't think the pad that they are offering with it is worth anything to the asphalt racer
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 12:20:43 pm
Randy, you do post some good stuff and I appreciate it as you are probably the only one to have used this caliper. We will see how it goes.
 Since Brakeman used Wilwood o-rings in the Celica caliper it would not seem likely they would need to change these o-rings since they are Wilwood calipers. Just my logic!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 16, 2013, 12:27:20 pm
Randy, you do post some good stuff and I appreciate it as you are probably the only one to have used this caliper. We will see how it goes.
 Since Brakeman used Wilwood o-rings in the Celica caliper it would not seem likely they would need to change these o-rings since they are Wilwood calipers. Just my logic!

Well, since Wilwood does not offer the caliper with an "O"-ring only square cut, we'll see how long it takes for BM to offer that kit.

You say USLCI has signed a contract with BM, does that mean BM will not be offering any other pads as they supplying the proprietary pad for INEX?

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 12:40:02 pm
They turned atleast 500 laps and the pads are still good to go, thats a fact and that is proven!!!!! If you have your own proof bring it and we will discuss it!!!!

BRAD, lol- I got my ass chewed because a certain person raised hell for offering a discount here, I am standing behind my offer and it will as yours stay. I am shipping several sets to several states TODAY! Brad, Keep selling to anyone that orders parts and do not worry about it. By the way, the e-mailer to USLC did not have the nads to sign his name- imagine that!
 
So whoever has an axe to grind with me and Buckeye legends Call USLC and let them know that we are shipping today, nevermind, they already know!

USLC HAS ORDERED PADS FOR THE NEW CALIPER THROUGH BRAKEMAN< THEY WILL BE AVAILABLE SOON! THE ORDER WAS SIGNED YESTERDAY!

Well look at that Dennis, we have something in common, though I havent heard from USLC in a few months for supposedly selling their parts too cheap as a particular dealer reported to them
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on April 16, 2013, 12:56:29 pm
Randy,
  do you see this caliper as a major upgrade from the calipers that we use now?  Just curious, and you seem to know both systems pretty well. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 16, 2013, 01:15:44 pm
Randy,
  do you see this caliper as a major upgrade from the calipers that we use now?  Just curious, and you seem to know both systems pretty well. 

Thanks

I do not know yet. I have only seen the single picture posted here and I really can't answer that until I have the caliper in hand and I can check it out. My concern is the position size and how it is going to effect the master cylinder.

The two sizes offer previously was 2 & 2.125" for a total piston surface of 4 or 4.250" for the front calipers.

Now, unless the caliper has a specific, propriety bore size, the piston surface are is now going to be 1.380" per piston or 2.760" per caliper or 1.750" per piston and 3.0" per caliper. So, the combined front caliper size is now 5.52" or 6" and the current master cylinder is not going to be able to take up two (2) more inches of surface area.

That is why they had to go from the 19mm M/C on the roadster to the 1". But that was too big of a jump and the car would not hardly stop, so USLCI had the 2.250 brake calipers cast and that is what they install now in place of the 2 or 2 1/4" Toyota caliper.

Dennis, if you have them in hand, can you take some better quality pictures of the caliper, brackets and the remainder of the parts?

Since I am one the other side of the country, I have to wait 5+ days to get the kits out here to my dealer and couple of days from him to me.

Do, I think it is a "major" upgrade the answer is no. But I cannot speak to the rest of the system until I actually get them in hand and I can offer a educated opinion.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 01:45:16 pm
Randy I sent  you several photos, let me know if you do not receive them!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 16, 2013, 02:37:41 pm
Dennis,

Could you please post them so you are not getting a ton of requests for pics?
If you need help posting them send me a message and I will do what I can.

Light flurries; But I am determined to go into town and load up my car come hell or snow today. lol!
I'll be back in a few hours.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 02:52:46 pm
Randy, you do post some good stuff and I appreciate it as you are probably the only one to have used this caliper. We will see how it goes.
 Since Brakeman used Wilwood o-rings in the Celica caliper it would not seem likely they would need to change these o-rings since they are Wilwood calipers. Just my logic!

Well, since Wilwood does not offer the caliper with an "O"-ring only square cut, we'll see how long it takes for BM to offer that kit.

You say USLCI has signed a contract with BM, does that mean BM will not be offering any other pads as they supplying the proprietary pad for INEX?

Randy - RPM
As of 1:32pm today, I am told that Brake Man has no affiliations with USLC, and has pads available for the new calipers.
I have some sets of every available compound on the way; #2, #3, #84, and #85
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 03:43:07 pm
LOL Jim. everything has to be so tense with you, he said she said, quoting quotes, posting past statement. Do you think I dreamed up the statement about USLC selling brake Man pads, wholy cow. When the President of USLC tells me he signed a PO for Brake Man pads, I would say its so.  If you choose to believe otherwise or want to try harder to prove something have at it. The fact is they will be carrying brake Man pads.  This is getting real old Jim!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 16, 2013, 04:58:20 pm
I quote things because that is the easiest way for people to see what I am responding to, especially when there are other posts in between. Why you always choose to take it personally and escalate things, I don't understand.

I don't think you dreamt up anything, but I don't think Brake Man would lie about it either, as it would not be in their best interest.
I have nothing to prove, I said that the #10 pads are not going to last long for asphalt applications, and that opinion is backed up by Wilwood's own description and by Randy.
I also said that Brake Man says they don't have a contract with USLC. I don't need to prove anything. Thats what they said.

You're right Dennis, it's getting old, but you're the one who always escalates things into a personal pissing match, not me.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 16, 2013, 05:37:49 pm
OK...I think we ALL need to take a deep breath and settle down.  I have read some very interesting material as this thread goes along, but let's not get carried away.  We all are anxious to see just what the new brakes have to offer and how they will truly work with our cars.  We need to be patient to see how they work after those who install them on their cars can report back as to how they actual work in a real race situation.  If brakeman or whomever offers better pads that last longer, great.   It truly amazes me sometimes how we all get caught up in a rule change(myself included) when their are much worse things happening in this world like the bombings in Boston.

Just trying to be the voice of reason.... :)
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 16, 2013, 05:45:40 pm
Thank You Mark! Was just about to post something similar myself.

So people should be getting the new calipers very soon. Lets see what the reports are from our members that bought them and go from there.
Dennis and Randy already said there are other pad compounds available. Which ones work best will be up to driver preference and track.
Time will tell. Until we start seeing results from those using the new system, lets just calm down and see what the folks report back.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Richie25x on April 16, 2013, 07:05:41 pm
Would also like to see the pictures :) minicon25@hotmail.com
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 16, 2013, 09:05:12 pm
Randy at RPM, could you post the photos I sent you. This site for whatever reason always says the file is too large, thanks Randy.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 16, 2013, 10:11:44 pm
Randy at RPM, could you post the photos I sent you. This site for whatever reason always says the file is too large, thanks Randy.

I tried too...

They have been sent to Steve so he can post them.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 16, 2013, 11:09:45 pm
Pics were not attached to your email Randy. Resend and I will size them.
Unfortunately, our site program doesn't do well with pics. SORRY!!!

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 17, 2013, 01:12:07 pm
Well, I tried to forward Dennis' email to Steve and that did not work so I loaded them to my photobucket account.

Randy - RPM

(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/wilwood2013001_zpsb405e265.jpg) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/wilwood2013001_zpsb405e265.jpg.html)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/wilwood2013002_zps9188aae6.jpg) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/wilwood2013002_zps9188aae6.jpg.html)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/wilwood2013005_zps4fe5ff21.jpg) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/wilwood2013005_zps4fe5ff21.jpg.html)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/wilwood2013004_zps42cef080.jpg) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/wilwood2013004_zps42cef080.jpg.html)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/wilwood2013003_zpsfef699cd.jpg) (http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/racerrad8/media/wilwood2013003_zpsfef699cd.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 17, 2013, 02:43:46 pm
Did they use standard instead of metric fittings on the caliper, thus the need to switch the braided lines?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 17, 2013, 02:53:14 pm
Did they use standard instead of metric fittings on the caliper, thus the need to switch the braided lines?

Nope, they are using the 90* -3/4 elbow in the caliper and the end of the brake line is the female A/N fitting. You can see the gold 90* fittings in the bag.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 17, 2013, 03:42:01 pm
So, correct me if I'm wrong, they are the same braided lines that are currently on Legends cars, are just being supplied as part of the package?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on April 17, 2013, 05:03:59 pm
My understanding is that the line is different. I am told it is a standard thread, not metric, but I haven't received mine yet, so I can't say for certain.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 17, 2013, 05:49:14 pm
So, correct me if I'm wrong, they are the same braided lines that are currently on Legends cars, are just being supplied as part of the package?

Jim,

It is not the same brake line. The current, Toyota caliper brake line has the male metric thread that threads into the caliper. The new brake line is a female A/N -3 or -4 thread to thread on the 90* fitting that screws into the caliper. Look at the caliper end of the line on the left of the photo, female not the old style male.
 
You can see the difference in the picture on your website at the same left side of the photo; http://www.vmsmotorsports.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1634511

They are not interchangeable.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on April 17, 2013, 05:55:35 pm
Got it, thanks. Need to stop looking at things on my phone, pics just aren't that big  ;D
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 18, 2013, 08:40:45 am
The braided line has a standard male end that swivels and a female bubble on the other end.  I do like the swivel part. The brakes were really easy to install, centering them takes a little time but no big deal. We will see how it goes on the race track.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on April 18, 2013, 11:35:54 am
Dennis, When are you planning on using these? Are you racing this weekend? Would like to hear your feedback once you try them. I should have mine tomorrow, and will be getting them installed, but my first practice isnt until 5/10.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on April 18, 2013, 01:05:42 pm
Bunch of the guys up here have them on already and practiced here last nite... Didn't stick around to see how they liked them, but they race here Saturday (weather depending). I'll see how they liked them........

Now that I think of it, one of the guys is a member on here that used them last night, maybe he'll chime in to say what he thought.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: svtmatt on April 18, 2013, 05:04:00 pm
The master cylinder to caliper piston sizing issue that Randy brought up seems like a pretty important one.  Sounds like the Roadster had to change master cylinders to account for the larger total piston area these calipers provide?  Does that issue not apply to the Legend car for some reason?

MT
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: amp racing on April 18, 2013, 07:41:44 pm
wildwood has a master to match those brakes calipers...not inex approved yet..
 joe
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 18, 2013, 08:32:48 pm
Just what I was afraid of after reading Randy's very good and thorough explaination of the brake caliper surface area of the old Toyota vs.  new Wilwood caliper.   Sounds like next new item may be a new Wilwood master cylinder with INEX stamp on it.  I am hoping that the guys who will be trying this new brake package will find out that the current master cylinder will work OK with the new Wilwood brake calipers.   Otherwise, where does this stop?  If the master cylinder requires to be changed also, then new brake lines will be required also as most Wilwood master cylinder utilize AN type fittings as far as I recall.  Pretty soon the average weekly racer just trying to have fun will be broke and finished.   Sometimes change is good and sometimes not.....As I said before,  only time will tell.  Anxious to hear back initial results with those with the new brakes.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 18, 2013, 09:27:17 pm
The whole system was tested by multiple teams, NONE had issues that they felt were a problem. Doug Stevens may be the most popular set up guy out there and he liked the whole thing. They tested large and small piston Wilwood calipers, different compound pads and they all felt this was the best combo. This was not a stab in the dark, this was well tested.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: phylzub02 on April 18, 2013, 09:39:51 pm
Any Ideas If They Are Going To Ever get Rid Of The ancient Drum  Brakes On These Like The Thunder Cars have on them????thanks frank
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 18, 2013, 09:48:04 pm
Frank they originally tested the rears, the fronts became a e true problem due to supply and demand for a better product.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 18, 2013, 09:57:28 pm
The formula of piston size to master cylinder ratio negates one important part. The piston area has increased by 50% per caliper, BUT the pad surface area has been greatly decreased. This is critical if you are trying to compare the new to old.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: svtmatt on April 19, 2013, 08:43:27 am
I'm actually surpised there's not a new master cylinder that goes with this package.  Its another opportunity for INEX to bring a part completely in house from a supply perspective and provide a quality racing part to us versus a aftermarket OEM part that we can buy from several different outlets besides our dealers. 

I'd welcome a new, racing quality master cylinder if it was offered.

MT 
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Hyerflyer2 on April 19, 2013, 11:39:45 am
I received my new brakes on Monday and have purchased  the most aggressive pad that currently can be bought for that caliper from summit racing for $80.50 just so I can personally feel the difference between the pads that cone with the package and the new pads I bought
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 19, 2013, 01:28:54 pm
Hyerflyer2....Regarding the aggressive pads you bought for that caliper from Summit Racing for $80.50.  Is that price for brake pads for one caliper or both calipers?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Hyerflyer2 on April 19, 2013, 01:39:21 pm
Both with free shipping
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 19, 2013, 08:28:27 pm
I'm actually surpised there's not a new master cylinder that goes with this package.  Its another opportunity for INEX to bring a part completely in house from a supply perspective and provide a quality racing part to us versus a aftermarket OEM part that we can buy from several different outlets besides our dealers. 

I'd welcome a new, racing quality master cylinder if it was offered.

MT 

Wilwood (and others) offer some nice master cylinders. I think, with the brake caliper change, it will just be a matter of time.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 20, 2013, 11:33:39 pm
Well, it is 11:30pm EST so there are now races complete and those who have used the new calipers.

Any product reports on the first night out?

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: slack11 on April 21, 2013, 07:43:59 am
We were cancelled this weekend, it was a low of 25 degrees Saturday night.......  No one up here got a chance to race with them yet.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on April 21, 2013, 09:29:40 am
After losing 2 of the caliber sliders in 2 consecutive weeks I will probably buy the system anyway.

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 21, 2013, 01:06:36 pm
After losing 2 of the caliber sliders in 2 consecutive weeks I will probably buy the system anyway.

Robert


Robert,

If you throw away the little "hair pin" clips and use safety wire on the slides you will never lose another.

I did that back in 1994 and I have not lost one since...

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on April 21, 2013, 06:54:54 pm
Thanks Randy, I started to last night but wasn't real sure whether to do it or not. Wasn't sure whether it would interfere with the normal operation.

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Hyerflyer2 on April 22, 2013, 01:43:56 pm
I just tested the new front brakes they work almost too good I had the most aggressive pad I'm gonna  have to try the lesser aggressive pad and see how it goes
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: vince6b on April 27, 2013, 09:07:29 am
Here we go again with the same guys who won't spend the money and then come out here to trash INEX ,  I for one i'm not a big fan of the brakeman stuff I think there WAAAAAYYYY over priced for what you get ,so for $380 compared to $1000  I'm ok with it. And they save you 14lbs altogether.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 27, 2013, 07:19:00 pm
Vince,

Apparently, you have not noticed that people are already spending money on Brake Man and Wilwood pad upgrades. Will just be a matter of time before the whole deal gets just as expensive.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Legends57x on April 28, 2013, 11:30:45 am
Vince,

Sorry, but not all of us are blessed to have the resources you have and if you think I'm trashing INEX, that's balogna.  We are just having a discussion as this website is set up to do and often times suggest items to make to  possibly make things better for ALL.  

Again, we're all entitled to our opinions.  Have a wonderful day!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 28, 2013, 12:52:49 pm
The brakes cost 380.00 COMPLETE. They work VERY well, the replacement pads are $35.00------- $35.00, go buy a set of $175.00 cobalt pads for your $600.00 brakeman calipers and have a good time!  Bash away boys!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Hyerflyer2 on April 28, 2013, 04:03:16 pm
I ran the new brakes with the suggested pads and  honestly notice no difference from the brake man set up   Besides the 19 lbs off the nose of the car maybe ill try going to a touch more aggressive pad and see how that works out but of you have stock brake set up I would definitely reccomended buying the new setup great value for the buck
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on April 28, 2013, 06:26:35 pm
Okay,

I installed two sets of calipers this weekend, one on a Legend car and the other a roadster. The weight savings on both cars was was 7.2lb.s per side or 14.8lbs off the front of the car.

I added 16 lbs of weight to both cars to compensate for pad wear.

I can tell you the shims supplied with both sets were not sufficient to center the caliper upon the rotor. I ended up with .055" on one car and .060" of required spacer one the other.

The next road race is in a couple of weeks and we'll see how they work.

Two things, I recommend when installing;

1) Get longer bolts for the bracket mounting to the caliper, the stock bolts are not long enough.
2) Spend your time getting the caliper centered on the rotor, it will help prolong the brake pad life.

Although I have never spent a dime on BM parts as I do all of my own brake work for myself and many, many others, if this package works as well as anything on the current market at the time of introduction, then they can only get better and make you faster.

I will pass along the information as I get it. I hope to have a circle track Legend on the package in the next couple of weeks.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 28, 2013, 08:45:52 pm
Randy thank you so much for the info, info on the new stuff has been pretty quiet, I believe so far there have been few issues. I TOTALLY agree on the shims. The two set we installed took more than what was supplied. The cars we installed them on had new rotors turned way down. We will see and I do appriciate anyone who tries them and reports back. Its important good or bad.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 28, 2013, 08:56:43 pm
Upside of things is that there does seem to be a significant weight savings. Sure; There will likely be some adjusting to do. I am sure everyone will figure that out. It will be interesting to follow individual results from the new calipers and see what pads seem to work best. Thanks for the updates!

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chadvarner85 on April 29, 2013, 07:10:32 am
Installation was pretty easy, I aslo had to dig around and find some shims(Grainger) and they were pricey. The pad the brakes come with I dont think are aggressive enough (depending on the track you run) and had slight fade when I had to use alot of brake in traffic. Zero brake drag after racing.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on April 29, 2013, 08:06:49 am
I wonder if these pads fade during there first high temp cycle and then are good to go or will this be a problem throughout the life of the pad?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 29, 2013, 08:09:58 am
Chad,

Did you bed the pads in or just install and go?

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chadvarner85 on April 29, 2013, 11:37:08 am
Install and go... Dennis u make a good point... It didn't seem to fade in the second feature .. I thought it might have been because I was upfront and out of traffic but it could have been because it was he first cycle.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 29, 2013, 11:43:31 am
That is the reason for bedding the pads in. It puts heat cycles into the pads in increments rather than "shocking" the pads like the install and go does.
You may want to check your pads and see if you have any glazing on them.
JMHO

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on April 29, 2013, 03:03:24 pm
Bed the pads????

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on April 29, 2013, 03:26:28 pm
Hi Robert,

Bedding in the pads is a process of heat cycles. Some slower laps and lighter braking and faster laps with some heavier braking.
Process has been around since someone put disc brakes on a dinosaur. And before anyone makes jokes about that; Yes! I have been around that long. Had to ride my dinosaur 5 miles to school, uphill both ways. ;) I even do it on my street vehicles. NO... Not still driving to school 5 miles uphill both ways. I have never had any brake fade or brake issues with pads.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Winterracing on April 29, 2013, 10:16:01 pm
make sure you turn the rotors prior to new pads as well, I had an issue last year where I threw new pads on with different compounds without touching the rotors and had bad break fade in the race.  I turned the rotors and didn't have an issue after that.

Dan
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on May 13, 2013, 07:05:00 am
Robert,

Here is a link to the process of bedding the pads and rotors:
http://www.wilwood.com/Pdf/Miscs/Pad_and_Rotor_Bedding_Steps.pdf

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on May 13, 2013, 09:57:40 am
Great info Steve

Thanks,
Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on May 13, 2013, 10:05:03 am
Stuff I have ALWAYS done and don't really think about. I do this on race cars and street vehicles.
It IS a good idea to turn the rotors when replacing pads. This, I have not always done.  :-[
It is good stuff to know for those new to racing; Or those that wonder why their brake pads/rotors don't last long.
The process has worked for me.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on May 13, 2013, 10:23:37 am
besides scuffing the tires during warm up laps we also warm the brakes up as stated in that article. I don't know if we can enough time to go through the complete bedding process though. We would have to give up a practice session to do that.

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on May 13, 2013, 10:40:05 am
besides scuffing the tires during warm up laps we also warm the brakes up as stated in that article. I don't know if we can enough time to go through the complete bedding process though. We would have to give up a practice session to do that.

Robert

Something you can do in a parking lot or at practice. Just heating and cooling cycles.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: IraceLegends77 on May 13, 2013, 11:32:13 am
Just an observation that I saw on one of my teammates cars. He had some rubbing on the top of the caliper from a older set of wheels that he put on. It put a 1/4" deep scar on the caliper. I would check the clearance on the wheel before running. There might have been more to the story but just reporting you what I saw. 
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on May 13, 2013, 11:42:18 am
Good point Scott! I just asumed there was enough wheel clearance with the new calipers. A good thing to check.
Thanks!

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chris26 on May 13, 2013, 04:34:49 pm
i had the same rubbing problem on my calipers. calpers dont hit spinning the wheel in the shop but i guess the wheels flex a little on the track. Greg our teck guy at Concord is going to find out what we can do about it. i dont see any reason a small spacer wont be allowed because you still have to fit through gauge.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on May 13, 2013, 08:11:32 pm
Are you sure the spindle pin is tight and not moving within the spindle?

If the spindle pin can move in the base the flex is only at the wheel as the caliper is directly mounted to the spindle base and not moving.

We see the spindle pin coming loose frequently in road racing. It is one of the bolts that gets touched at every nut & bolt. Long corners and speeds over 100mph put stress on a lot of things the oval guys never experience.

Also I do not use loc-tite because the bolt will feel tight but still be loose.

The cast spindle body is the softest point and they are just mushrooming; that is why the forged based had to be made...

It would also be interesting to see the wheel(s) that are rubbing as to reference the center bead area, can you take a couple of pictures?

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on May 13, 2013, 08:13:19 pm
Do you all know what wheels were rubbing (brand). Just curious whats going on?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: chris26 on May 13, 2013, 11:25:10 pm
Right now i have the trap wheels on. i have some bassets on my other car with older tires i am going to switch to and see if there is more clearance. i will check the spindles also
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on May 14, 2013, 08:17:14 am
Ya I  certainly would look things over, if they were clear in the air it seems like there should be no  deflection as everything is rigidly attached to each other. Make sure the main 5/8 spindle bolt is tight as well as the ball joints. I REGULARLY push and pull on the wheels of Legends cars when they are lifted on quick jacks. I find LOTS of stuff all the time. Never the less it would be good to hear whats up, you never know what will develop with new stuff.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on May 14, 2013, 09:47:26 am
Anybody have a couple races under their belt with the new brakes?
Wondering how much of an advantage they are other than the big weight savings
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: IraceLegends77 on May 14, 2013, 10:13:13 am
I don't know which wheel my teammate was running when he had problem for sure but he does usually run Bassets. His feed back was that they work very well with the stock pad but understand we are running on a 4/10 mile track with little brake needed. I plan on buy a set soon (hint-hint Jim) and I run them at Shenandoah Speedway which is a lot like Lake Erie Speedway. I will be using a lot more brake at a track like that.  I will find out for sure which wheel he had on his car though.

Sarge #77
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on May 20, 2013, 09:49:25 am
We tested 2 cars at Lake Erie Speedway on Sunday, both cars that had the new brakes performed really well. We had no issues, they brakes well, the calipers released perfectly. We ran all day with zero issues.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on May 20, 2013, 02:28:32 pm
I ran my first race with them Friday, and love them. the only bad thing I could say is I think the BP-10 pads are not aggressive enough. I am getting a set of the bp-20's to try, and I think they will be better. There are also several other compounds available, so time and testing will tell.

I also think this is a driver preference piece, so others might really like the bp-10, but I wanted a bit more...

Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerdad on June 02, 2013, 04:13:06 pm
Has any one had any problem with the new brakes dragging hard on the rotor when you come in after a race or practice. We raced last night and I had to push the pistons back in every time she came in. This is the same thing that I was dealing with with the old brakes. Is there anything else that could do this.
Thanks cody
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: Richie25x on June 02, 2013, 05:03:24 pm
Has any one had any problem with the new brakes dragging hard on the rotor when you come in after a race or practice. We raced last night and I had to push the pistons back in every time she came in. This is the same thing that I was dealing with with the old brakes. Is there anything else that could do this.
Thanks cody

I had same problem with my brakes(not new calipers)  I had my brake pedal to tight and it was keeping pressure on.
Loosen up the rod that goes in to your master and loosen up the bolts on the side of the pedal.
I was told you want some free play in the pedal.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: IraceLegends77 on June 02, 2013, 05:30:38 pm
Sounds like a bad master cylinder to me. We had two go bad in Florida where we were using a ton of brakes. Never had one fail at our local track but we never use much brake at home.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerdad on June 04, 2013, 12:18:30 am
Today I checked to see if the rotors were hard to movie in the garage and they were free. Pushed the pedal 2 or 3  times and then checked and the rotors were hard to turn. Now they will not turn more than a 1/4 or 1/2 a turn when you spin the rotor. But if you remove the pads or just push the pistons in the rotor will turn 2 or more full turns ( nice and free ).
Will check the pedal and rod.
Have been trying to talk to willwood but have been on hold all day. Will keep updateing as I find out more.
Thanks cody
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerdad on June 06, 2013, 09:49:20 am
You were right the pedal was to tight and holding it on at the very end of the throw. Now when I pulled the brake apart to clean bearings the threads in the new braket for the willwood brakes pulled out. Hopping I can put a keensert in it.
Thanks cody
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: AKRACER on June 11, 2013, 02:01:09 pm
has any one had trouble with the pads walking out of the calipers with the new front setup?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on June 11, 2013, 09:10:20 pm
We have raced them for several weeks with no issues. I have asked USLC what they are hearing, they have had very few issues. Mostly with installation errors and pad selection. Please keep us posted on your issue, its good to hear the good AND bad with new products.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: AKRACER on June 13, 2013, 02:03:28 pm
well what can i do to keep the pads from sliding out toward the wheel bearings ive had it happen once in a race now and back  when i was breaking the pads in on the street.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on June 13, 2013, 11:06:47 pm
I am not following. The pads are held in by the clips pin. How could they come out past the clip pin?
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: erich17 on June 17, 2013, 09:53:33 pm
If interested I have the complete new brake setup with 1 test day probably 35 laps on them for sale. Msg me if your interested.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: s10custom on June 18, 2013, 08:46:15 am
Why are you selling after just 1 race/practice?

Robert
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: erich17 on June 18, 2013, 01:33:05 pm
I did not like the feel of the brakes, I know a lot of people have been very happy with the system but I prefer my old system (yes its a 2k old system but I have already paid for it and the car works)
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on June 18, 2013, 01:46:09 pm
Perhaps just a pad issue? Maybe not aggressive enough for you?

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: erich17 on June 18, 2013, 02:42:44 pm
I just had a long convo with Dennis,  I am not saying I am looking at this the correct way and other view this the wrong way but you have a smaller pad surface area with the new brakes and a larger piston area the brakes have always had a problem getting hot.  If you have a smaller surface area and a larger piston you will put more force on the rotor creating heat.  If you change the pad to a more aggressive pad to increase stopping force you will also increase heat.  I would love to make them work but I just don't have the time to commit to them while we are testing several other things on the car.  I can compare my notes from previous years with the old system and I know what he car will do.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on June 18, 2013, 04:21:22 pm
I am currently removing both systems I installed from the road race cars I have here.

I have tried several different pads and neither driver likes the feel and do not have any confidence. The smaller pad is getting way too hot, having major fade issues and then boiling the fluid. They have not been able to complete a 30 minute session without loosing the brakes due to fluid boiling.

I have even gone up to the high dollar/high temp brake fluids and this last weekend added cooling ducts to both cars.

I have been working with a major brake pad manufacture and they have nothing else to offer for the package at this point. They are going to have some ceramic discs made to fit between the pad & piston to try and combat the heat transfer which causes the fade/boil.

The pad that came with the calipers cannot even make a full day of road racing before requiring replacement. The more aggressive I have gotten with the pad eliminates the driver fell and it goes to wheel lock to quickly when cold, but then won't stop when hot.

I will be trying them again at a later time, but we cannot afford to loose too many points in the middle of the race season.

This package was definitely not thought out for the road racers...

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: legends13 on June 20, 2013, 12:22:23 pm
I find that very interesting. I am running the new system, and I have found my temps to be lower than previous.  I have so far tried the BP-10 and BP-20 pads, and both work well. The only issue I have found is that it takes a few laps to get enough heat in them to get them working well. Of course I am running oval, not road course, but like I said, I have been hard pressed to get them warm enough, quickly. I even resorted to stomping the brakes as much as possible under pace laps to try and build some heat.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on June 20, 2013, 09:43:53 pm
Brad, I agree. We are using them without issue. I was at USLC all day today and asked several people what they knew. Pad selection seems to be the topic right now. We have put 200 laps on the stock pads and they are unhurt. I know  that Wilwood, Cobalt and others have pads. I believe any problem would be solved by releasing the rear system for next year. Then we would have a racing brake system. Drum brakes- REALLY!
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on June 20, 2013, 10:07:12 pm
Well, that must be the difference in circle and road racing.

Trying to stop this car from 130mph, 5th gear running a 2:50/2:92 at terminal velocity and having to slow down to a 3rd gear corner to make the corner obviously generates much more heat that going around an oval.

In fact this weekend the Legends & Roadsters will be running within less than 10 seconds of the cup cars at Sonoma. So we have a $15,000.00 Legend running close to the same speed as the cup boys.

I am just passing along my experiences after two full weekends of running the system.

I am sure you guys are hearing nothing but praise from the proprietary product supplier, car manufacture, sanctioning body and mother ship, they surely are not going to have any problems to report.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on June 21, 2013, 06:59:16 am
LOL Randy. The first part was very good and I agree the road race must be extremely different.As far as your rant about the mother ship, I spent the entire day there and for the most part the brakes have went well. Biggest problem is matching the right pad with the right application. They are well aware some racers have had isssues. The problem is there are so many variables in brake systems  car to car. Most guys have no idea how to maintain the rear brakes, with the new system you need more rear. This is a problem and is magnified with the new fronts. I  have heard some guys feel they  don't stop the car and others say they are too touchy. Your situation is certainly different than most because of your road coursing.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on June 21, 2013, 07:05:50 am
Dennis,

I thought that INEX was not going to upgrade the rear brakes any time soon for the Legends Cars.
I do agree that a 4 wheel disc brake set up would be a benefit. Drums are pretty outdated in most forms of racing.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: knoxracing on June 22, 2013, 10:41:40 am
First, Randy I read my post again and maybe saying you went on a rant was not the best phrase.  I just think USLC has made the right choice and it will work out.

USLC has made no decision as to when the rear upgrade will come. I DO NOT WANT TO START THE WHOLE "now we have to spend more money debate". I think it is what is needed to finish this brake system properly. While I was as USLC this week we did talk about the rear and the possibility of releasing them sooner than later. The front were the topic we really focused on, I think pad selection is the key. I have some pads we will test this next weekend that will hopefully work on a short track. The stock pads worked very well on a 3/8 track.
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: racerrad8 on June 22, 2013, 12:44:50 pm
First, Randy I read my post again and maybe saying you went on a rant was not the best phrase....

Well, I guess we are on the other coast and information flow stops at the Mississippi river. It is amazing to my local dealers when I ask a question based on information you post here and they do not know anything about it.

It is unfortunate that they are not able to travel across the country on a regular basis, but with that said, I can tell you not a single member of the USLCI management staff has ever been out here to California to check on what their "dealers" are doing.

Then add on the fact that we have the largest road racing program in the world here in Nor-Cal and we still have zero communication or input to how this are done.

So, we feel like red headed step children way over here on the left coast.

I made a decisions a long time ago based on the business practices I saw with prior California Legends dealers of never becoming one when it was asked of me.

And finally, sure they might be able to make the package work on the ovals, but I am not sure if I can get them to work road racing. I have already spent close to $700.00 in brake pads, but due to the extreme uses of the brake during road racing the pad surface area & caliper is not big enough to complete a race without wearing out, burning up, or boiling the fluid.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: justfreaky on June 22, 2013, 06:50:41 pm
Everyone has their opinion on the Wilwood calipers, pads, etc... The question was asked about what people thought about the calipers and pads. Let it go at that. Opinions are like noses; Eveyone has one.

My intent on asking Dennis about the rear braking system was not to start any kind of debate. Last I had seen posted; Rear brakes were not going to be part of the braking deal at this point.

Steve
Title: Re: Brake Update
Post by: VMS Motorsports on June 24, 2013, 09:18:49 pm
Steve, when a question is asked about what someone thought about a particular part or experience with it, the only thing that people can give is their opinions...so there is going to be a difference in what people think